Gender & Sexuality News

Group fights bill to declare gay conversion therapy a fraud

Protestors gather at a rally
Opponents of a California bill to declare gay conversion therapy a fraudulent practice gather at a rally outside the Capitol as the Senate holds a hearing on the matter inside in Sacramento, Calif., on June 12, 2018. Opponents said Tuesday the legislation could infringe on their religious freedom. (AP Photo/Sophia Bollag)

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — An effort to call gay conversion therapy a fraudulent business practice gained ground in the California state Senate on Tuesday, despite opposition from hundreds who rallied to fight the proposal on religious grounds.

The Judiciary Committee passed the proposal, which means it is a step closer to being considered by the entire state Senate. An earlier version of the legislation has already passed the state Assembly.

Sen. Bill Monning, a Democrat from Carmel, said he heard from some people who said they opposed the legislation because they believed it would restrict the reading of or sale of the Bible. He said he was confident amendments to the bill ensure it will not restrict use of the Bible and will not infringe on religious liberty.

Republican Sen. Joel Anderson of Alpine said the legislation would limit people’s choices in seeking therapy. More than 350 people rallied at the state Capitol to oppose the proposal.

“I did not want to be gay,” said Jim Doman, a pastor who said the therapy helped him to marry his wife and have children. “Please do not take away professional help programs that have helped people like me.”

The bill aims to ban selling or advertising sexual orientation change therapy.

Supporters of the bill authored by Assemblyman Evan Low, a Democrat, say such therapy is ineffective and harmful.

“Conversion therapy is psychological torture,” said Sen. Scott Wiener, a San Francisco Democrat who is gay. “There are people who want to erase people like me. … It is shocking in some ways that in 2018 this is still happening.”

Opponents gathered for a rally outside the Capitol ahead of the hearing. Several shared stories about how therapy helped them stop living as LGBT people.

Low, who heads the Assembly’s LGBT caucus, said the bill does not harm freedom of speech or religion because it applies only to commercial practices or financial transactions.

He updated the bill’s language since it passed the Assembly to more clearly state it applies to selling services rather than engaging in the practice.

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Sophia Bollag

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  • Somebody, please, explain why these 3 sentences in the article are lies, lies and nothing but (the truth?):

    “Gay conversion therapy … helped [Jim Domen] to marry his wife and have children. … ‘Professional help programs … have helped people like [him].’ … Several shared stories about how therapy helped them stop living as LGBT people.”

    Speaking of Jim Domen:

    “Jim Domen, founder of Church United, said he underwent therapy and counseling as a teen and later as a young adult, to overcome his same-sex attraction. The feelings never went away, he said, but he now knows how to cope with them. Domen says he has been happily married to his wife for the past nine years with two children and a third on the way. ‘I live a happy, peaceful life now, and I was miserable as a homosexual,’ he said. ‘Counseling and therapy is not fraudulent. It gave me the freedom to choose heterosexuality.'”

    Source: Deepa Bharath, “Activists spar over bill that would outlaw sale of sexual orientation conversion therapies”, Orange County Register, May 29-30, 2018.

  • I see what you mean:

    “‘Three states will get us better infrastructure***, better education*** and lower taxes***,’ said Tim Draper, the Silicon Valley venture capitalist who sponsored the ballot measure … Draper’s fascination with splitting California into separate states has been his only real foray into state politics … Recently, Draper has been an outspoken advocate for cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin.”

    ***… for gay conversion therapy, per the AP article?

  • No need to fight over it; it IS a fraud, as determined by medical and psychiatric experts. Nobody else has a right to be heard on the matter.

  • Waiting for the Russian trolls to flood this comment section with an avalanche of comments the way they did the article about the Catholic bishops. Did anyone else notice that? I mean, when has any single comment ever generated almost 300 likes on this site? Something fishy is going on. And why was this article not open to Disqus comments until today? Weird stuff.

  • In other words, “nothing to see here folks, move along. Look over here instead.”

    Not working.

  • Mr. Domen is entitled to his viewpoint, but the “fraud” claims are based on Conversion Therapy providers “promising to change sexual orientation”. Mr. Domen confirms that Conversion Therapy didn’t change his sexual orientation, since “feelings never went away”. If therapy providers wanted to provide counseling, support, and encouragement to people who wanted to “choose heterosexuality”, then there wouldn’t be any basis for a “fraud claim”.

    A group of conversion therapy providers, including JONAH, were taken to court under a similar “fraud claim”, and the defendants, including JONAH, could not provide one witness that could testify under oath that they had had their “sexual orientation changed”, therefore, JONAH was found guilty for fraud for “offering services” promising to “change sexual orientation” when they weren’t able to prove they were able to do so, see here:

    >”Two of those men, Preston Dahlgren and Jeff Bennion who at the time were members of the board of North Star testified for the defense at the JONAH trial as purported “success story” witnessses for whom conversion therapy had worked. Both admitted under oath to still being attracted to men despite undergoing years of conversion therapy.”

    For a full summary of the case, see here: https://www.splcenter.org/20160525/quacks-conversion-therapists-anti-lgbt-right-and-demonization-homosexuality#scientific

  • Sexual orientation has nothing whatsoever to do with religious belief. These people are from the same cloth as the KKK.

  • Are these the same “medical and psychiatric experts” that dropped homosexuality into the DSM, moved it around a couple of times, and then removed it again?

    Are these the same “medical and psychiatric experts” that undertook to treat a cure pederasts, kept on ice for months to a year, pronounced them “cured”, and then washed their hands of it when they reoffended?

    I thought so.

  • The article on the Catholic bishops was cited on another website.

    No need to explain it with imaginary “Russian trolls”.

  • Here’s your explanation. He was bisexual. i suspect that most people are to some degree. Hell, I’m them Biggest Queer you’ll ever meet, and even I had some hetero experiences. You Call me bisexual, if you want, because certain idiots on these very pages have done so. But I’m not.

    He hasn’t learned to be heterosexual. He has learned to act heterosexual. His feelings never went away, as he admits. He’s just learned to manage them better. John Paulk, who used to be the poster boy for “you can change”, also got married and had children. A great many bisexual people do, only to realize as life progressed that they couldn’t maintain it any more. Paulk used to swear up and down that he was straight, only to admit some years later that he never was straight, nothing had changed, and he was supremely unhappy. Of course, he married Anne Paulk, so there you have it.

    Stopped living as LGBT people doesn’t mean that they have become heterosexual. All they are doing is admitting that sexual orientation is innate. You might be able to change behavior.

    From the boys in the band, 50 years ago, and now revived on Broadway.

    From the boys in the band.

    “You’re a sad and pathetic man. You’re a homosexual and you don’t want to be, but there’s nothing you can do to change it. Not all the prayers to your god, not all the analysis you can buy in all the years you’ve go left to live. You may one day be able to know a heterosexual life if you want it desperately enough, if you pursue it with the fervor with which you annihilate. But you’ll always be homosexual as well. Always Michael. Always. Until the day you die”.

  • I agree with @disqus_EvywcWX4px:disqus , if you want to understand why people are fighting to designate “conversion therapy as a fraudulent business practice” @disqus_EWQdIv2I1H:disqus , you should listen to one of the JONAH plaintiffs – Michael Ferguson’s experience with conversion therapy here: https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/michael-ferguson-seth-anderson-fighting-gay-conversion-therapy/

    If you want to see another example of someone who thought they could “choose hetersexuality”, see Josh Weed’s recent post about his experience living in a mixed-orientation marriage: http://joshweed.com/2018/01/turning-unicorn-bat-post-announce-end-marriage/

    >”Five-and-a-half years ago my wife, Lolly, and I sat together at a hotel in Las Vegas, nervously composing a coming out post that would, unbeknownst to us, change our lives in nearly every way imaginable. We were so, so nervous. But we were sweet and earnest, and we had been feeling the cosmic drive to do this for months . . . we knew, without a doubt, that it was what we were supposed to do, even though it felt totally out of left field, and we had no idea why. Our post went massively viral, and we were featured on shows and newspapers around the globe. . . . Today, we need to let you know that Lolly and I are divorcing.”

    People who can sucessfully navigate a mixed-orientation marriage are probably bisexual, like Ben explains.

  • Oh shoot. HpO asked a considered question, a totally rational spot-on question, and the best you can do is to blindly & arbitrarily declare that ex-gay people are “bisexuals”?

    But those gay men who sneak into bed with women just for the fun and the curiosity, who happily find out they can still “function” in the ole boudoir, and then they go right back messing with the guys, oh NO those gay men ain’t bisexual. They’re 100% gay for life.

    They’ll arbitrarily stick that “bisexual” label on ex-gays in a heartbeat, and be all proud to do so, but you better NOT stick that same label on the gay guys, no matter how many times they snuck over the fence at night.

  • As usual, you manage to spectacularly miss the point, and end up by agreeing with me.

    Bigotry will do that to you.

  • Btw, Floyd, I didn’t arbitrarily do what you claim I did.

    The guy who was quoted in the article claimed he was bisexual.

  • By the way, years ago, I was speaking with a self-identified lesbian — wearing rainbow colors too — when she asked me for a date or two. This is the truth.

    “But won’t some of your local friends and colleagues in this town notice that?” I asked. “Won’t they be upset with you? I’ve heard that they say things like ‘Mustn’t have your cake and eat it too.’

    She replied, “I don’t care what THEY say. I’m a lesbian, but I do what I wanna do.” (Shades of Mayor Bill De Blasio’s wife!)

    All I’m saying is, don’t be a hypocrite Ben. Don’t put false labels like “bisexual” on the ex-gays, while you 100% gay men and gay gals play all these fun little games on the side.

  • I had forgotten all about Josh weed. Despite all of his claims to the contrary, he admitted finally that he was just joshin’ us. Neither he nor his wife could maintain the façade.

  • Still missing the point. Good for you.

    Just what I said. Bisexual. They exist. They’re real. And far more than you are willing to admit, except that you just did.

  • As I have said many, many times, and probably to you, heterosexuality isn’t normal, it’s just common. And exclusive heterosexuality is far less common than you are so desperately needing to believe.

  • Let’s just cut to the chase. It’s fraud. It’s abuse. It has no rational basis.

    It’s entirely telling that no professional medical organization endorses it or considers it a valid and medically sound for of therapy.

    Instead we have religious based bigots who are claiming it is an expression of faith. But still dishonestly calling it and claiming it to be therapy. All part of a quixotic effort to pretend they can erase gays from existence.

    Behind every anecdote about a “cured gay” there are hundreds of stories of abuse, suicide, and admissions it is a scam. Pure and simple. CA has every right to call kg fraud and deny it any classification as therapy. “Religious Freedom” is not cause to lie to the public.

  • What was up with that? There are never more 10-20 people commenting here, tops. There was some major spamming or porting over from another site.

  • Exactly where, Ben? Please state the exact quotation where Pastor Domen said, “I’m bisexual.”

  • “I used to be gay, but now I’m straight” means…
    I was always bisexual, but the gay part really bothered me. And the describes domen to a T– well, that and his desire to validate his alleged changes by attacking gay people and our participation in society, which he has been doing for over a decade, and long before he met his adoring wife.
    Every ex-gay– and that is what her says he is– will claim they are no longer gay. what they will never do is state categorically they no longer have gay attractions, think about the gay, or continue to work out their own issues by attacking others who don’t have them. Or anything like that. They have merely changed their outward and visible behavior. They haven’t changed who they are.

  • I cannot speak to those “conversion therapy” businesses whose selling and advertising the California bill seeks to ban.

    I can affirm that the former atheist and active homosexual Blessed Priestmonk Fr. Seraphim Rose (Eugene in the world), from the very same state of California, was, by the traditional Orthodox spiritual/ascetical disciplines of the Sacraments, prayer, fasting, repentance, vigil, and reading of the Holy Scriptures, able to put both those things behind him. He radiated peace and love to those around him, and reposed in 1982.

  • No, just of homophobes who think it’s ok to preach against homosexuality in their pulpits. This is a problem to me.

  • I have never preached a homily on the topic of homosexual sin. I treat it like all other sins, as something that requires struggle and repentance.

  • LOL. Is everything a conspiracy involving “corporate America, educational institutions, and the media” to you? Are you sure you’re not afraid of the big, bad “Gay Goliath” over there?

  • I am anti-GCT (gay conversion therapy) because it fails, harms, kills. And because it isn’t gospel evangelism. Lately, however, I’ve become pro-EGP (ex-gay pride), thanks to just one man, by the name of Luis Javier Ruiz, whose spiritual conversion from an unbelieving gay to a believing ex-gay had nothing to do with GCT. A Pentecostal church was instrumental in his spiritual conversion. Now this guy, Jim Domen, has got my attention, only because, unlike Ruiz, he went through GCT in order to become a born-again Christian. Was/is that even possible? But what about the fact that “the feelings never went away, he said”? And so I had to ask around. Hence my original comment on the Associated Press report.

    Thanks for responding.

  • Hmm. Let’s start with that last sentence, Brian. “Nobody else has a right to be heard on the matter.”

    First, I haven’t seen any statement THAT fanatical and stressed-out, since I last saw the Neon-Day-Glo “God Hates Gays” hate-picketer signs of the Westboro Baptist Church. It’s as if the schools never taught you about the existence of the First Amendment. We all have a right to be heard on this matter, including yourself.

    Second, there’s not one LGBT person in this forum who can produce an officially MD-signed med-hospital certificate or psych-hospital certificate, that confirms they are LGBT for life — or even that they will still be gay next week! Science — even pro-gay funded stuff — has already confirmed the existence of sexual orientation change. Slaves are getting free. Christians and Ex-Gays aren’t going to let you (or California) forget it.

  • 1st off, I’m puzzled that your use of the word, idi*ts, didn’t get censored by RNS, like mine; twice now.

    2nd & apropos, what do you think, then, of Luis Javier Ruiz? I’ve told Friendly Atheist regulars he’s the real deal, based on his CBN News interview and coverage by NBC News. I have my doubts, too, about Jim Domen, because he’s pro-GCT (this therapy thing) and I want it banned. But about Ruiz’s Ex-Gay Pride in Christ Jesus? So far so good.

    Thanks for your angle on Bisexuality. That helps explain why “the [gay] feelings never went away, he said”.

  • Ah, here we go. Pastor Domen never actually said he was bisexual at all.

    So all that “bisexual” talk, was just you trying to do a snow job in the middle of June. YOU (not Pastor Domen) voluntarily chose the bisexual path.

    And you just don’t want to admit that you could instead, choose Jesus Christ and choose HIS ex-gay path to freedom. A genuine choice exists here, Ben. You know it ain’t too late.

  • Hey brother in Christ, maybe you already know about Luis Javier Ruiz, how that his new life’s story is more convincing than Jim Domen’s. It’s so to me only because this therapy thing has nothing to do with Ruiz’s conversion, but everything to do with Domen’s. I’m now onto Domen because I want to believe him. Whereas with Ruiz, I just believe his testimony in a CBN News interview and an NBC News report.

  • Can’t wait for the next Ex-Gay Pride Parade myself.

    Which reminds me to say, Gay Parades really are as political as the Black Is Beautiful Demonstrations I used to admire when I was just this yaay tall.

    So let them both be, ‘bro. Gays & Ex-Gays alike have human rights.

  • I’m a huge fan of 100% genuine Ex-Gays. So thanks for the tip on “Seraphim Rose (Eugene in the world)”. My 1st such hero is Luis Javier Ruiz. I’m still hoping Jim Domen to be my 2nd. Knock on wo… oops never mind that.

  • Everybody has the right to speak. Only people who know what they’re talking about (scientists, in this case) have the right to be heard.

  • In America and Western Europe, LGBT advocates hold the levers of power in business, academia, the media, and Mainline Churches. For you to pretend otherwise is highly disingenuous.

  • Fr. Seraphim is a model of the Christian life of repentance and spiritual struggle for modern man.

  • Really? News to me. Could it be that the public in general is no longer willing to tolerate discrimination based on sexual orientation, because it is stupid, and you are simply behind the times? I think so!

  • Well, as you already know, there are scientists — well credentialed and qualified PhD scientists — on BOTH sides of this issue. (And if you did not know that situation existed, you will now.)

    “The desire to shift to a biologic basis for explaining homosexuality, appeals primarily to those who seek to undercut the vast amount of clinical experience confirming that homosexuality is significantly changeable.” — Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, (former Fellow in Psychiatry and Child Psychiatry at Yale University, and a past president of the CG Jung Foundation), “Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth.” (1996)

    “Corollary evidence suggests that the phenomenon of substantiated change in sexual orientation without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be more common than previously thought.” — E. M. Pattison and M.L. Pattison, “Ex-Gays: Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals”, American Journal of Psychiatry 137, no.12 (1980), pp. 1553-62, quoted in Satinover’s book.

  • News to you? Been living under a rock? Or living with eyes wide shut? Try talking to Russell Berger if you want to learn of an example of how the LGBT posse holds the levers of power.

    But of course that simply doesn’t fit your self image of always being perpetual victims, does it?

  • In addition, I have personally met a local, fully qualified practicing PhD psychiatrist, who turned out to be providing Change-Oriented counseling and services to any gay men who requested it, rich or poor. We’re talking about decades here, Brian. A respected local psychological expert.

    He stayed totally under the media’s radar (and no, I won’t divulge his name to you, sorry). He never published anything on this topic, he just quietly provided his services to help men escape. I only found out his name, through a former patient who said he had been helped greatly.

    Honestly, it’s a mistake to pretend that the only people who have a “right to be heard” are scientists. And the Gay Goliath NEVER abides by that position anyway. But if you do want to go that route, then be advised that there’s real scientists on both sides of this issue.

  • I’ve never had the word censored, but then, i don’t use it often. And that particular person knows exactly to whom I was referring.

    As for Ruiz, I’d have to search to find my comments on him before, back when he was news. But I will say he went through a tremendously traumatic experience, and if he were marginal already, this could drive him over the edge. And if he were traumatized enough, and fearful enough, some grifter could likely have convinced him.

    But exgay doesn’t mean heterosexual. There have been plenty of exgays who made their claims, only to repudiate them later. I mentioned John Paulk, but those who keep track of this sort of thing could give many many more names.john Schmid and Alan Chambers of Expdus are also good: chambers said he’s never changed, but stayed in his hetero marriage. Schmid claimed change, than admitted he never changed either, and is now married to a man. David pickup, who sells conversion therapy, admitted the last time I encountered him that he still hadn’t achieved heterosexuality as yet, but any day now, for sure.

    Ex gays are people who claim they are no longer gay. But it doesn’t mean they are heterosexual. Domen is a particularly good examples. Gay and straight aren’t the black and white that antigay people make them out to be. Nor are they simply behavior, which is also a staple of the religious right. The boys in the band quote was expressed by someone who knew. As far as I am concerned, domen is simply desperate to prove something to himself.

    MY little foray into heterosexuality didn’t make me even remotely bisexual, but oneof the regulars sized upon it to “prove” that I could “change”. I told him he could try having sex with a man, and that would prove that he could change too.

    I feel sorry for Ruiz, but if I remember what he said, he is one of those exgays that blames his previous life on being gay, and not on his bad choices. That’s always a giveaway. We’ll see where he is in a few years. The biggest problem is that no one can see into someone else’s head. After ted haggard was finally caught, if my memory serves me correctly, he announced two or three times that he had been cured. It was a lie. I’m sure it was at the behest of his keepers. He finally admitted he was biSexual.

    Thank you for being against conversion therapy.

  • I believe in supporting people where they are at, but I have some concerns with how religious dogma may be affecting people’s ability to have a healthy perception of sexuality, identity, and their purpose in life.

    I think this is highlighted with a term like “ex-gay”. I’m not sure what that entails or means. Do people who identify as “ex-gay” believe they were “homosexual”, but are now “heterosexual”? Are they bisexual and deciding that they will only encourage/recognize the “heterosexual” feelings they are having and ignore any “homosexual” feelings?

    People are free to choose whatever they want, but the sexual orienation spectrum, gender spectrum, and biological sex spectrums are a biological reality, and it does real harm to people who try to supress their identities.

  • I’ll let Russell Berger, victim of LGBT power-posse intolerance, speak for himself.

  • Berger? really? His company fired him becuase he made them look bad. He’s no martyr.

  • Here ya go Floyd. He’s bisexual.

    “Gay conversion therapy … helped [Jim Domen] to marry his wife and have children. … ‘Professional help programs … have helped people like [him].’ … Several shared stories about how therapy helped them stop living as LGBT people.”

    Speaking of Jim Domen:

    “Jim Domen, founder of Church United, said he underwent therapy and counseling as a teen and later as a young adult, to overcome his same-sex attraction. The feelings never went away, he said, but he now knows how to cope with them. Domen says he has been happily married to his wife for the past nine years with two children and a third on the way. ‘I live a happy, peaceful life now, and I was miserable as a homosexual,’ he said. ‘Counseling and therapy is not fraudulent. It gave me the freedom to choose heterosexuality.'”

    Source: Deepa Bharath, “Activists spar over bill that would outlaw sale of sexual orientation conversion therapies”, Orange County Register, May 29-30, 2018.

  • Trying to suppress it And to pretend that they have changed when they haven’t. And to use that mythological “change” to attack other gay people and our participation in society because the other gay people do not live with the shame, fear, and self hatred that infects the exgays is just wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

    This is really the issue,as I learned from my gay brother who died of murder or suicide or both 16 years ago in the Mexican desert. the problem was never his sexuality, but his self hatred. That killed him.

  • Well, you may want to keep Luis Ruiz in your prayers, HpO. He started receiving serious threats less than 48 hours after the national media published his story. Ruiz is finding out right now, just how vicious things can get when the Gay Goliath is p*ssed off at you.

    Goliath, he don’t want NO competition, NO free speech from ex-gays. He intends to shut them up. Luis Ruiz, Pastor Domen, Janet Boynes, Rosaria Butterfield, Walt Heyer, all of them.

    Not only individually shut them up, but even at the **state-level.** (and if California gets away with it, OTHER states will do the same mess.)

  • I’ll let all the murdered gay and trans people in this country, victims of Christian power-posse intolerance, speak for themselves. Oh, wait, they can’t, because they’re dead…

    Maybe you should be praying for LGBT+ people, instead of preying on them for attention?

  • He was fired because he dared to publicly say something of which the LGBT commissars did not approve. They have no tolerance for other points of view; diversity of opinion will not be allowed.

    “…he made them look bad.” Not to me, and many others. But he made them look bad to certain people, whom we are not allowed to criticize.

  • ‘I live a happy, peaceful life now, and I was miserable as a homosexual,’ he said. ‘Counseling and therapy is not fraudulent. It gave me the freedom to choose heterosexuality.'”

    Ummm, don’t look now, but Pastor Domen just publicly repudiated homosexuality and openly said he chose heterosexuality.

  • Yes, Christians segregating off a group of people, pointing your finger at them and lamely call them sinners. Too bad for you — it does not work anymore !!

    The same thing failed when calling Jews sinners, it also failed when calling divorced people sinners and it failed calling mixed race couples sinners. I can go on and on…atheists, undesirable races and religions…Christians don’t understand a losing streak, do they? Well, Benedict-Option for all of you !!

    I will certainly support your right to religious bigotry — in return take all of your fellow anti-gay knuckle draggers with you to your LGBT-free Ben-Op enclaves…Hey, bakers get to do hetero-only wedding cakes — what’s not to like?

  • I pray for all stuck in the mire of sins, including LGBT people.

    I have never denied that some LGBTs have been the victims of wrongful violence, so you first sentence is superfluous.

    You, however, deny LGBT intolerance of even uttering a different opinion. I mentioned the recent case of Mr. Berger as an example of such LGBT intolerance of diversity of opinion.

  • Nonsense. Phony persecution.
    Of course he didn’t make them look bad to you. you agree. But there are lots of people who disagree with antigay bigotry, whether or not it hides behind religious belief or phony persecution, or just admits itself for whast it so clearly is.They might be gay, but more likely they are not, simply by the numbers.
    And believe it or not, I suspect a majority of Americans are simply tired of the religious right trying to define everything for everybody. An industry like the physical fitness industry, that probably knows where the majority of its money comes from, is going to be particularly sensitive to attacking the source. That’s just good business.
    My former gym in Sf used to be a gold’s franchise. Then the CEO of Gold’s made a substantial contribution to the anti marriage campaign of prop. 8. Well over half of their membership in the bay area threatened to quit. The owners of the franchise were not happy over that, and didn’t renew their franchise.

  • If I hated their guts, I would not desire their spiritual healing and salvation, but would be content to leave them in sinful darkness. Instead, I am willing to speak the truth to them, even at the cost of listening to dopey, vapid comments such as your own

  • Brian did just fine. Nothing to add there. He made you look foolosh.

    I will take your arguments concerning the medical validity and efficacy of the glorified torture when you get your doctorate in psychology and there are papers published in the peer reviewed journals making such claims.

    In the meantime, I simply can trust the entirety of the medical professions opinion in saying its garbage. They are the experts who know what they are talking about and back their opinion with evidence. You are not.

  • I yawn at your butthurt, and I mentioned the many cases of murdered LGBT+ people as examples of such Christian intolerance of diversity of opinion. #yawn

  • I take it then that you admit LGBT intolerance of diversity of opinion and free speech. Got it.

  • Berger would have been fired if he had spouted off a racist KKK comment or a sexist rant. Why should an anti-LGBT tirade be any different?

  • “Phony persecution.”

    So if someone is fired for expressing pro-LGBT sentiments, it’s real persecution. But is some is fired for expressing anti-LGBT sentiments, it’s “phony persecution”. Got it.

  • We don’t tolerate discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. We have to live in fear of being tortured to death by the likes of you. You are afraid of writing same-sex wedding invitations. Get over yourself.

  • Hardly a tirade, LOL.

    So, if he had been fired for a pro-LGBT tirade, that would have been okay? Or does you tolerance only work one way?

  • No of course not — just like he should not be fired for an ant-racist or anti-sexist tirade. Objective morality !!

  • Oh what nonsense! Point me to an Ecumenical Council or Patristic writer that called mixed race couples, or people of Jewish descent, sinners. Such bunk.

  • I tend to go right to the ultimate writers…I learned it well at St Rose of Lima …Mathew 27;25

  • Yes, you answered my question. You believe there is only one “correct” opinion on LGBT; no diversity is tolerated. All prejudged by a false equivalence to racism and sexism.

  • Um… I hate to break it to you, but any “doctor” who is afraid of the media catching up to him can hardly be considered a “real scientist”, good buddy.

  • I believe there is one correct position on racism, sexism and anti-LGBT. You are asserting racism and sexism is different…you will have to provide an explanation and justification for that.

    I and others are consistent !!

  • You don’t get to have opinions about other people’s sex lives, just because your own is totally vanilla and boring.

  • I didn’t say that. You did.
    And thank you for admitting it is about “expressing anti-LGBT sentiments”.

  • You first have a duty to ask if anyone requires “healing”. Salvation is completely in the eye of the beholder, mind your own business…it’s not yours to help out with. Guilt-free, responsible sexual activity by hetero / homo-sexuals is as good as “salvation” can get.

    Stop patting yourself of the back, you are being presumptuous !!

  • You have no clue, I mean ZERO clue in your head, as to this guy’s credentials, accreditation(s), and the professional reputation that he enjoys. At one time I didn’t, either.

    Suffice it to say that you and I likely won’t ever catch up to this guy’s professional resume, especially if you’re over 21.

    He’s not scared of anyone, of course. But that don’t mean you have to tell everybody all of your business, and that don’t mean **I** have to tell all of his business either!!

  • Um… Nobody has any clue as to this guy’s credentials, accreditation(s), and the professional reputation that he enjoys, because he refuses to present any proof of such for public scrutiny. Like, I know how much Christians love believing things without any proof, but damn!

  • “I have never been afraid of homosexuals. Have you?”

    Well, there is one face. Here’s the other.

    “In America and Western Europe, LGBT advocates hold the levers of power in business, academia, the media, and Mainline Churches. For you to pretend otherwise is highly disingenuous.”

    “Instead, I openly maintain that homosexual sin is sin. (that can get you fired from many jobs, e.g. Russell Berger at CrossFit”

    Try talking to Russell Berger if you want to learn of an example of how the LGBT posse holds the levers of power”

    He was fired because he dared to publicly say something of which the LGBT commissars did not approve. They have no tolerance for other points of view; diversity of opinion will not be allowed.
    “…he made them look bad.” Not to me, and many others. But he made them look bad to certain people, whom we are not allowed to criticize.”
    ——————————
    Underneath all of this is the claim that somehow, YOU are being persecuted when WE stand up for ourselves and say STOP IT. Those days when the conservative Christianity can just get away with what they have always done to us under the guise of religion, and pretending it is about righteousness, are mostly over.
    Let’s talk about SODOM-y laws, shall we? The “infamous crime against nature, not to be named among CHRISTIANS”. Ahhh, those were the days, weren’t they? People losing their lives and liberties because of the private sexual acts among themselves, as the civil government stepped in to enforce conservative Christian theology on people who weren’t bothering anyone. And every time we pushed against those laws, continuing even down to today, 15 years after SCOTUS finally tossed them, conservative Christians were there, claiming that it is right and proper to criminalize people who aren’t criminals because someone else doesn’t like what they do with their genitalia. .

  • Don’t look now, Spuddie, but the two citations given in the previous reply to Brian, actually meet — and clearly exceed –your stated requirements there, (including the part about needing to see an item from a specifically peer-review journal publication. Like Am. Jrnl. of Psych.)

    Don’t even try to question the long credentials and accreditations of the scientists I quoted. Just use Google if you need convincing.

  • OK, so he and others could also provide professional services to straight people who want to become gay. Help people escape heterosexuality. How do you sign up?

  • We expect all sorts of people to suppress their identities and/or feelings: kleptomaniacs, pederasts, serial killers, pyromaniacs, speed demons, on and on.

    To take your argument at its face value, society is harming all of those people.

    While that is the modern heresy, it appears to groundless hogwash.

    Being able to suppress identities and/or feelings is one of the things that distinguishes human beings from animals; it is a basis of forming a society.

  • I’m so sorry for your loss. I wish we could rid the world of self-hatred over biology. Your brother deserved to love himself, I’m sorry whatever culture he was exposed to led to self-hatred. He didn’t deserve that.

  • Thanks for the sympathy.
    I agree 100%. The saddest part of it is that I didn’t find out about his being gay until he had pretty much wrecked his life. Consistent with his self-hatred, he never told the one person who could have helped him.

  • It comes down to consent. If two people love each other, and consent to a relationship (meaning they are willingly choosing and are of an age to consent), they should be free to make those decisions and supported in them.

    Your examples all are problems that violate the consent of others. Kleptomaniacs are stealing, per se without consent. Pederasts can never have consent, because it involves minors who cannot give their consent. Serial killers are taking life without the consent of their victims. Pyromaniacs can do whatever they want with fire in a safe manner that doesn’t harm other people, the property of others, or recklessly endanger other people or property. Speed demons are perfectly fine in the right context, e.g. NASCAR. If people insist on breaking the legal speed limits, then they are endangering others on the road without their consent.

  • Consent has zero to do with the issue you brought up and I commented on.

    Either people can suppress their identities and/or feelings or they cannot.

    You stated they cannot without suffering harm.

    I believe that is erroneous.

  • Now look Floydlee, you have not cited any authority on the subject from actual experts.

    In fact the entire weight of expertise on the subject says you are not only wrong, but lying.

    The chief proponents of calling ex gay therapy fraud are the medical profession itself. Its why those for it are using “religious freedom” arguments rather than justifying it as therapy. Because you know there is no

    “Don’t even try to question the long credentials and accreditations of the scientists I quoted.”

    Why not? You usually cite quacks and amateurs who have no authority on a subject. People who are talking out of their areas of expertise.

  • >”We expect all sorts of people to suppress their identities and/or feelings: kleptomaniacs, pederasts, serial killers, pyromaniacs, speed demons, on and on.”

    All of these “categories” have problems with consent. They are problematic because they violate the consent of others, for the most part.

    A person who suppresses their LGBTQIA identity, especially through a religious context of scrupulosity have a quality of life on par with people with Lupus. Those who embrace their identity have a much higher quality of life, see Dehlin, Sexual Orientation Change Efforts, Identity Conflict, and Psychosocial Health Amongst Same Sex
    Attracted Mormons , 2015, here at: https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5314&context=etd

    LGBTQIA individuals can embrace their identities without violating the consent of other people.

  • Either your reading comprehension is suffering, or actually quoting him on the subject is unfair.
    He chose to ACT heterosexually. He says his feelings NEVER went away.
    As I said to you once before: in theory, I could never have any sex ever again if it weren’t of the heterosexual variety, and it would never make me a heterosexual. But in fact, it would just mean I would NEVER have sex again.

  • Arguing with Bob of bobWorld is one of the less productive things you can do here. It is the word of bob, and that word is law in BobWorld, because he is the king and the god of it.
    Also a legend in his own mind,.

  • The credenials and accreditations are quite public. Merely doing a Google on his name will immediately produce much or most of it.

    (How do I know this is true? By googling, of course.)

    But I ain’t telling you his name, dear Charlotte. So very sorry.

  • BTW, here is a column on ruiz. I think it makes some very good points. Read the last comment, especially.
    http://www.slowlyboiledfrog.com/2018/05/hate-group-leader-further-exploits.html
    Ruiz is like just about every other ex-gay. He’s still as gay as he ever was. and he is blaming his poor choices on his being gay, which was never a choice for him. But alcohol, drugs, and promiscuity were. And so is his jumping on the virulently ex-gay bandwagon. You can bet what as he falls off that wagon– and I’m willing to bet that he will– his puppetmasters will have no further use for him, any more than they do for John Paulk, Alan chambers, Ted Haggard, or anyone else. And then, when he is no longer either making the money he may be getting now, or receiving the dog biscuits he is most assuredly receiving, he’ll be back where he always was, making the same bad choices.
    I am sorry that he is yet another victim of homophobia and internalized self-hatred. I really am. I’ve known far too many of those people, highest on the list being my deceased brother. But in the end, I believe there are no rewards and no punishments, simply consequences.

  • How one behaves sexually has everything to do with one’s faith and beliefs.

    In Genesis, God forms male and female to create and fill the earth. God could have given Adam a male “helper.” Instead, he gave him one whose design was such that, when joined with his in perfect fit, enabled them to accomplish the first divine command given to man: “Be fruitful and multiply.”

    Same-sex couplings can never be unitive or multiplicative because they lack the complementary features to do so. Consequently, the biblical reproach of homosexual sex is not some religious relic proved false by modern science; it’s a timeless judgment against behaviour that is contrary to our God-given design and purpose.

  • No. It comes down to controlling desires which contradict our nature.

    Human sexuality and intimacy is designed to satisfy an essential biological purpose: reproduction. When a husband and wife come together they form a single biological unit through their physical complementarity. It is a function that same-sex individuals are incapable of accomplishing. They can only distort the sex act to indulge in sensual gratification.

  • Then I can only assume that you are lying about this guy’s credentials, since you cannot produce them.

  • I read those last paragraphs. I have the same suspicions as well. That the Christian Right is in this Ex-Gay Recruitment thing to score political points against the LGBTQ movement and render them illegitimate. So is this guy being exploited by them? Oh for sure. Is he a born-again Christian? Now, see, that, too, I’m sure of, but only after reading these two articles:

    (1) According to Chandelis R. Duster, “Pulse survivor and others gather to celebrate ‘freedom’ from being gay: A few dozen people in total showed up to celebrate ‘freedom from homosexual/transgender lifestyles by the grace and power of Jesus Christ'”, NBC News, May 5, 2018:

    “Luis Javier Ruiz … said he no longer identifies as gay and denied going to conversion therapy”.

    (2) According to Luis Javier Ruiz, when interviewed by Jessilyn Justice in “Pulse Survivor: I’m in Such a Lovesick Relationship with Jesus”, Charisma News, May 3, 2018:

    “Christ … is the Word. And … the Word … does not lie. … [Rather] I’m in a lie. It wasn’t only a homosexual lie, it was a whole bunch of things also that I was falling short of. … I found Christ, and He can change, … deliver and set you free. Not only from homosexuality, but everything else that comes along the line. … Jesus is still making miracles, Jesus is still saving lives that He transforms. … I just feel that He’s just like, ‘I’m going to put words in your mouth, just go, go in love,’ so that’s what I feel the Holy Spirit is doing through me right now. I just feel that lately, that I feel that He is equipping me to go to churches and kind of spread the message of hope and at the same time, equip the churches on how to approach this kind of new generation.”

  • FYI: Here are two reasons why Luis Javier Ruiz is my Ex-Gay Hero #1. So yes, we must pray for him.

    (1) According to Chandelis R. Duster, “Pulse survivor and others gather to celebrate ‘freedom’ from being gay: A few dozen people in total showed up to celebrate ‘freedom from homosexual/transgender lifestyles by the grace and power of Jesus Christ'”, NBC News, May 5, 2018:

    “Luis Javier Ruiz … said he no longer identifies as gay and denied going to conversion therapy”.

    (2) According to Luis Javier Ruiz, when interviewed by Jessilyn Justice in “Pulse Survivor: I’m in Such a Lovesick Relationship with Jesus”, Charisma News, May 3, 2018:

    “Christ … is the Word. And … the Word … does not lie. … [Rather] I’m in a lie. It wasn’t only a homosexual lie, it was a whole bunch of things also that I was falling short of. … I found Christ, and He can change, … deliver and set you free. Not only from homosexuality, but everything else that comes along the line. … Jesus is still making miracles, Jesus is still saving lives that He transforms. … I just feel that He’s just like, ‘I’m going to put words in your mouth, just go, go in love,’ so that’s what I feel the Holy Spirit is doing through me right now. I just feel that lately, that I feel that He is equipping me to go to churches and kind of spread the message of hope and at the same time, equip the churches on how to approach this kind of new generation.”

  • It’s not hatred. Jack refuses to affirm grave sin as acceptable. To say it’s hatred, or bigotry, or homophobia, or whatever insult you care to throw out, simply reveals your own fear and uncertainty.

  • Go to hell. You’re the insult – Jesus is going to slap the sh*t out of you. Grave hypocrisy.

  • Surely if people want to receive help with any particular issue bothering them then they are entitled to do so. Who judges this particular therapy “harmful”? A noisy and increasingly vociferous minority who are threatened by the possibility that it undermines their mantra that homosexuality is “normal”, to be “embraced” as “healthy”. What right has the State to curtail a citizen’s freedom in this way? A person can have their body mutilated and pumped full of hormones under the guise of medical treatment. Why can’t someone receive spiritual and specialist assistance in controlling or curtailing a desire they find unacceptable or troubling in their lives?

    What next? Banning exorcisms? Banning Confession? Banning prayer?

  • Or alternatively:

    “Yes, homosexualists segregating off a group of people, pointing your finger at them and lamely call them homophobes. Too bad for you — it does not work anymore !!”

    The intolerance of tolerance!

  • You don’t know sh*t. Go ahead floyd — prove it to us. Convert yourself to homo. Or hetero. Whatever.

  • It’s not complicated.
    It means a person who has same sex inclinations and gives into these desires by engaging in intimate homosexual genital acts. He could have said: “sexually active homosexual” – but, in the Churches eyes, a person is not a “homosexual” until he nourishes and then acts on the desire. In the same way that an adulterer is not an “adulterer” unless he encourages or acts on the inclination.

  • “Gays” or “ex-Gays” are misleading terms.
    Why not just say people who are unhappy with particular desires, inclinations or sexual attractions and seek help to control or redirect these in ways they choose to?

  • No. Jack spends a lot of time counselling people about how to free themselves from the snares of lifestyles that harm and distress them. You don’t define a person by their desires. A person’s character is defined by how they behave.

  • You’re not happy. People that refer to themselves in the third person are mentally ill. By the way, I’m neither harmed or distressed.

  • So everyone who holds a counter view to you on homosexuality is, by definition, a hypocritical liar. This then justifies your hatred and your refusal to listen to another’s point of view.

  • Canis regularly offers slurs and abuse to those he disagrees with, but little else.

  • One mustn’t allow hatred for God and Christ to drown out the wonderful, healing Gospel of love. It’s time to resist this abuse with reason and calmness.

  • That’s the very same cry this Gentile generation is now shouting.

    Let’s hope the same plea from the Cross holds good – Luke 23:34.

  • A quick Google check came up with a few links that might answer your question about evidence that psychotherapy works:

    https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.158.1.1

    http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/major-depressive-disorder/there-empirical-evidence-supports-efficacy-psychodynamic-psychotherapy

    I don’t know whether you’ll be happy with this, Happy Jack, but if you want to find any more evidence, try Googling “empirical evidence for psychotherapy.”

  • “…and say STOP IT” Stop what? Saying that a sinful action is a sinful action? Because that’s what we’re talking about here, in the Berger case.

    Sodomy laws is a red herring, as Berger was not fired for saying he wanted to revive them. Bringing them up is simply an attempt to cloud the issue with emotional rhetoric.

    “People loosing their lives and liberties…” Didn’t see him advocating that. But when people have to fear loosing their jobs and the ability to support their families simply for saying that, according to their religion, sinful acts are sinful acts, then some part of liberty and free speech has indeed been lost.

  • Get your money back from that school, they didn’t educate you well!

    Matthew 27:25 doesn’t say all Jews are sinners. Although lusting for the death of an innocent man is indeed sinful, not all the Jews of that time wanted that.

  • In a free country, I get to have opinions about anything and everything, despite the wishes of closet fascists like yourself.

  • Thanks for openly affirming your intolerance of diversity.

    Racism and sexism are predicated on the race and sex of certain individuals. Anti-LGBT is the opposition to certain actions (same sex contact). Race and sex are not actions.

  • “..by the likes of you”. Then you can rest easy, because if someone is truly like me, they would never torture anybody, much less kill them. Your comment sounds as if you are judging a whole class of people based on the actions of a few. Isn’t that the very definition of bias and bigotry?

    “…afraid of writing same-sex wedding invitations”. LOL! I think it’s YOU who really need to “get over yourself”.

  • Salvation is not “completely in the eye of the beholder”. What an idea! It is completely in the eye of God.

  • “At long last, however, research data have been accumulating that suggest psychotherapy produces lasting improvements and even changes brain functioning (1–3). Because the mind is inextricably connected to the brain, these findings should not come as a surprise.”

    If this is so, then why can’t this work in cases where people who want to be free of same sex desire choose this approach? What right has the State to curtail their choice?

  • Study the history. “Science”, particularly in the field of human relationships, isn’t free of cultural bias or political pressure.

  • So, in reality, you “counsel” people by poisoning them with your Sincerely Held Imaginary Truth.

  • Nope, you are the one judging LGBT+ people, based on your own sexual insecurities. We are the ones suffering, here, not you, your butthurtness.

  • First things first. Pastor Domen never suggested or mentioned bisexuality. Hasn’t used the term. So you kind of lied on that one. You can do better.

    Second, Domen HAS reported a change in his feelings. That is a clear part of his testimony.

    At the same time, he dated women for the first time in many years. When he felt sexual arousal toward the opposite sex, it rocked his world. “This is pretty cool,” he thought.In his men’s accountability group, he shared his newfound feelings.“Awesome, dude, you lusted over a woman,” one of the men said. Domen chuckled and replied, “Sin is still sin,” he said. “I don’t have the right to sin in the opposite direction either.”
    http://blog.godreports.com/2012/08/ex-gay-married-became-a-pastor/

    YOU say that a person’s self-identity is defined by their “feelings”, their temptations. Your position is, (for example), if a former alcoholic who’s been healed and delivered by the power of Jesus, somehow experiences the tiniest temptation to drink alcohol while accidentally passing through the Beer Aisle at the grocery store, that means Jesus never did heal him. That is a major falsehood, 100% unbiblical. Gay activists use this lie to try to keep their slaves from escaping.

    In contrast, Domen says (same link) “I will have sin issues until the day I die,” Domen admits. “It’s a journey. It’s a walk.” THAT, is biblically true for all Christians no matter what their feelings are.

  • Not yet. He reported they DID change, though. Yours could too, if you stop slamming the door in God’s face.

  • Unless people who claim to represent Jesus are indoctrinating people into that self-hatred

  • I think I’ll just roll my eyes. The evidence is in front of you, you don’t want to see it.

  • Ah, yes. It’s a process, and if he dies before the process is complete, you’ll just find your next example to prevaricate on.

    I find this simply amazing. Jesus can do anything, except when he isn’t.jesus is changing him, but it’s a long slow process that doesn’t seem to be taking.

    Anything, ANYTHING, will feed you antigay obsession, even if the facts of the matter are staring you right in the face. In seven years, he hasn’t changed. He’s in heterosexual heaven, and he hasn’t changed.

  • He said clearly, his gay feelings haven’t gone away. Since it doesn’t matter what he’s doing with his junk, but what’s going on in his head, HE HASNT CHANGED.

    But ok, you just continue to believe that he has. If you didn’t have intellectual bankruptcy, you’d have no intellect at all.

  • Okay, let’s fess up. Dr. Satinover’s and Drs. Pattison’s qualifications and/or statements are not in ANY danger of being falsified in this forum. We know the APA and its pals don’t agree with Satinover or Pattison’s statements, but that’s NOT because science somehow eliminated all those ex-gay people. Ex-gay folks are still around, they even show up on peer-review-journal radar. Their numbers only increase, not decrease.

    But I would like to address your comments about LGBT youth suicide. It’s important for Christians NOT to fall silent when Gay Goliath tries to exploit the suicide issue, trying to sell gayness and gay marriage. For teenagers as well as adults, you don’t have to be gay anymore, in Jesus Christ. So I try to offer links that show a different take on the suicide issue.

    On the science side, I try to offer Cornell University developmental psychologist (and director of Cornell’s Sex And Gender Lab), Dr. Ritch Savin-Williams. You gonna LOVE what he said, Spuddie.

    https://www.thefreelibrary.com/%27No+scientific+evidence%27+of+gay+youth+suicide+epidemic.-a0239607207
    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130732158

    On the Christian side, the Gay Goliath is claiming in the media that Bible-believing Christians are just as guilty as the “Conversion Therapy” for gay youth suicides. So Christians must do their homework and speak up, like this:

    https://www.equip.org/article/bully-pulpit-gay-teens-commit-suicide-preachers-blame/

    I realize this is a lengthy post. Too lengthy. But my goal IS to let Christian readers know where to find helpful information to offer to the general public, the media, the discussion forums, the kids, etc. We gotta speak up.

  • If you missed my point, it is simply this. Sodomy laws were a result of Christian thought and belief.

    No, I didn’t say Berger was advocating for them, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he did. conservative Christian howling has NEVER stopped any time the question was brought up. What I said was that he said and did something on company time, on company stationery, and representing the company to the public that was inconsistent with the company values, and most likely offensive to a majority of the people who use that company services. . What he did on his own time would not have bothered the company, but he did it on theirs.

    Do you remember don’t ask don’t tell? I certainly do. Saying three simple words, “I am gay”, could cost you your job, your career, your pension. Did you object to that? Suppose Father Schick suddenly said, “ya know, I think gay people living in faithful relationships is a good idea.” How long do you think you would last?

  • You are the worst kind of bigot if you judge someone guilty by association, not by what they themselves actually do. You are sadly blind to your own bigotry and prejudice.

    “sexual insecurities” LOL. How typical for you to launch such personal attacks about individuals you have never met. Project much?

  • It’s not an “inclination”, it’s an *orientation*. Most of the Catholic Church’s ministers are disturbed self-loathing closet cases like yourself, so not a surprise that they can’t even bring themselves to actually say the word.

  • Fascistic threats? Why am I not surprised?

    I am disabled, and have no business or church to boycott.

  • Are you LGB or T? If not, what could you possibly know about it? You make exceptions for your bigotry, because that’s who you are.

  • You and your ilk contribute to the anti-LGBT violence and the suicides of young gay people — you have blood on your hands, but you insist on bragging about it.

  • It’s crystal clear to me that you don’t know anything about healing and salvation.

  • You don’t have a legitimate “counter view”. You’re a sociopath. Your beliefs are also sociopathic.

  • Like I said, I’ve already personally met a “Wipe-Out” person. Told you all about him, how he lost ALL his homosexual feelings in an unexpected shattering “Blast of Explosive Power” from Jesus. (His description, not mine.)

    But author Mario Bergner? It took 10 years before his battle was finally over. Everybody’s different, God tailors His healings & helps to the individual’s needs. The Bible talks about God’s process of sanctification. We need it that way. But HE can permanently “remove the taste” of alcohol or anything else, out of a person’s mouth instantly. He heals you, and you’ll know you healed. You think you’re cute Ben, but maybe God got some Uranium-235 bombs lined up for you too.

    Jim Domen’s already cashing in. Experienced huge feelings he thought were gone. Able to marry a good woman and mean it, if you catch my meaning. Able to pastor a church, raise good family. Alan Chambers continues to maintain, without a single backpedal all these years, that his sexual orientation IS his female wife. Never retracted his own story. So why not sign up yourself, Ben? Why not see what God might have for YOU?

  • If we valued gay people and acknowledged their sexual orientation, there would be no need for so-called quacks to “change” them. This is why gay youth are more at risk of suicide — because we don’t nurture those kids. Sociopaths like yourself spout your ugly hatred ad nauseum, and it becomes internalized by innocent, vulnerable minds.

  • Your friends assertion that he did is no proof that he actually did. Paulk said so, too. So did Schmid. So did chambers. They didn’t.

    Chambers Has admitted he didn’t change. His weasel words about his wife show once again that he is a weasel. No surprise.

  • From something I wrote on the fraud of exgay therapy.

    What research are you referring to? Jones and Yarhouse? It’s probably the best “study” of its kind, as bad bad bad as it is, but it showed Exgay “therapy” to be a miserable failure, DESPITE the claims of those who see a turd and smell a rose. Even with their ties to the religious right and the anti-ex-gay industry, they were able to find only 100 study subjects, though the anti-ex-gay industry has declared that hundreds of thousands of gay people had “changed” because of Jeeeeeesussssssss! And of those 100 subjects, only 13 had “changed” from homo to “hetero”– a “change” the authors THEMSELVES described as “difficult, ambiguous and complicated”. In short, In other words, they only “changed”, the didn’t change. They said what their keepers and pastors, not to mention they themselves, wanted to hear.

    And as Christian admits, they lied. John Paulk, former poster boy for “change” and Focus on the Anus– sorry, I meant to type “family”– claimed for years he had “changed”. It’s how he “earned” his living. He even got married and fathered two children. Now he has admitted that he and many, many others lied to please their masters. He has also apologized for the harm that his lies caused so many people. Most importantly, his extensive “heterosexual experience”, all of his prayers to God, and all of his posturing, didn’t make him heterosexual. They only made him miserable, and enriched his keepers.

    And what of Jeeeeeeeesusssssss, and his power to “change” lives? Alan Chambers, head of Exodus, the “leading” “ex-gay” “ministry”, back in the days before he admitted that no one changes, claimed “hundreds of thousands”. Chambers went from claiming hundreds of thousands of “success” cases, to admitting that 99.9% don’t. No one changes– not in the least himself. He is just as gay as a goose as he ever was. And he is just as Christian as he ever was. That he is heterosexually married, and apparently faithful to his vows, changes NOTHING of what goes on in his head. The fulfillment that he claims is quite possible. I believe him, absolutely. But it hasn’t been an actual fact for any but the smallest minority.

  • Not believing that Jesus died for your sins isn’t a sin, nor is it blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

  • Fascinating. I am disabled, as well, due to traumagenic mental illness from growing up genderqueer in Alabama. Thanks, Christians!

  • Says the guy who personally attacks LGBT+ people for their lifestyles on a daily basis.

  • As Jack said elsewhere, the terms “gay” and “ex-gay” are not one he uses. If people want counselling to help control desires and drives they find unacceptable in their lives, then what is that to you or anyone else?

  • If it’s fraud, It’s fraud. Remember Laetrile?

    If they want treatment, according to hyper Christians on these very pages, all they need to do is sincerely pray to Jesus, and Jesus will change them. They can get their phony treatment from their pastors. Not to mention…

    What research are you referring to? Jones and Yarhouse? It’s probably the best “study” of its kind, as bad bad bad as it is, but it showed Exgay “therapy” to be a miserable failure, DESPITE the claims of those who see a turd and smell a rose. Even with their ties to the religious right and the anti-ex-gay industry, they were able to find only 100 study subjects, though the anti-ex-gay industry has declared that hundreds of thousands of gay people had “changed” because of Jeeeeeesussssssss! And of those 100 subjects, only 13 had “changed” from homo to “hetero”– a “change” the authors THEMSELVES described as “difficult, ambiguous and complicated”. In short, In other words, they only “changed”, the didn’t change. They said what their keepers and pastors, not to mention they themselves, wanted to hear.

    And as Christian admits, they lied. John Paulk, former poster boy for “change” and Focus on the Anus– sorry, I meant to type “family”– claimed for years he had “changed”. It’s how he “earned” his living. He even got married and fathered two children. Now he has admitted that he and many, many others lied to please their masters. He has also apologized for the harm that his lies caused so many people. Most importantly, his extensive “heterosexual experience”, all of his prayers to God, and all of his posturing, didn’t make him heterosexual. They only made him miserable, and enriched his keepers.

    And what of Jeeeeeeeesusssssss, and his power to “change” lives? Alan Chambers, head of Exodus, the “leading” “ex-gay” “ministry”, back in the days before he admitted that no one changes, claimed “hundreds of thousands”. Chambers went from claiming hundreds of thousands of “success” cases, to admitting that 99.9% don’t. No one changes– not in the least himself. He is just as gay as a goose as he ever was. And he is just as Christian as he ever was. That he is heterosexually married, and apparently faithful to his vows, changes NOTHING of what goes on in his head. The fulfillment that he claims is quite possible. I believe him, absolutely. But it hasn’t been an actual fact for any but the smallest minority.

  • Their desires are “unacceptable” ONLY because they were taught that. It’s a symptom of self-loathing. Internalized homophobia. It’s destructive.

  • Gay = “Opposed to Christ”? No. Christ embraces me. Christ freed me from the self-loathing destructive behavior to which you are enslaved.

  • ” Dr. Satinover’s and Drs. Pattison’s qualifications and/or statements are not in ANY danger of being falsified in this forum.”

    Of course they are. Neither of those doctors have done works on the subject that were the result of research in the field or subjected to peer review either. They are writing to a lay anti-gay religious audience and used as alleged experts, but have not shown their work to be up to expert level. Again, given the reaction by the medical community, you cannot make good faith claims it is therapy. But good faith claims are not what you are about. Making up crap to suit a specific sectarian agenda.

    “Ex-gay folks are still around, they even show up on peer-review-journal radar. Their numbers only increase, not decrease.”

    Not according to any of the data on the subject. There is no evidence to suggest anyone is “ex gay” just deep in a closet, or bisexual. Even its own former proponents have admitted that much. Again, there is a reason no professional medical association considers it therapy. Because its fraud.

    Christian bigots are driving up numbers for gay teen suicides
    https://www.ajc.com/news/world/gay-teens-four-times-more-likely-attempt-suicide-survey-finds/4N5PHGcLQOZMAzpqZZNLjJ/
    https://www.sltrib.com/news/health/2017/11/30/utahs-youth-suicide-rates-growing-at-alarming-pace-new-federal-report-says/

    Christians prefer dead kids to gay kids. You make that pretty clear

    “You gonna LOVE what he said, Spuddie.”
    Neither article say much of anything substantiated.

    You are not refuting or denying what I started off saying here. “Ex Gay conversion” is not therapy. It is borne of bigotry and a desire to abuse and erase gays.

  • Your facts may be a little imprecise, as far as I can tell.

    1. He did not do it on “company stationary”; he made the comment on twitter.

    2. I have not seen anything so far that said he did it on company time. Maybe he did, but I haven’t heard that for certain. I suppose that if he did, maybe he was following the NFL kneelers, who fancied they had a right to express their sentiments publicly on company time. I don’t think they had the right to do that on company time, and if that is what Berger actually did, then I think he was wrong to do it as well.

    3. I always thought “don’t ask don’t tell” was a stupid policy. Better to simply let homosexuals serve openly in the military.

  • According to Wikipedia’s sources: “Various ex-gay organizations have working definitions of change. Prior to disbanding and renouncing the idea of a cure, Exodus International described change as, ‘attaining abstinence from homosexual behaviors, lessening of homosexual temptations, strengthening their sense of masculine or feminine identity, correcting distorted styles of relating with members of the same and opposite gender.’ People Can Change defines change as, ‘any degree of change toward greater peace, satisfaction and fulfillment, and less shame, depression and darkness’, and emphasizes that for most people, heterosexuality is not the ultimate goal. When the term ex-gay was introduced to professional literature in 1980, E. Mansell Pattison defined it as describing a person who had ‘experienced a basic change in sexual orientation’. Some ex-gays advocate entering (or remaining) in a heterosexual marriage as part of the process. Some in mixed-orientation marriages acknowledge that their sexual attractions remain primarily homosexual, but seek to make their marriages work anyway.”

  • No links to the articles cited suggests you are cutting and pasting from a source which is quote mining (aka deliberately editing to dishonest effect).

    Typical Christian lying about science doesn’t like to show his work.

  • Now you are pretending you have personal expertise in an effort to sound credible. Again, not a sign of a credible statement.

  • Certainly it is: “He (the Spirit) will convict the world of sin…because they do not believe in me (Jesus)” (John 16:8-9).

    But not believing in Jesus is not a necessary characteristic of Jews. The Apostles were Jews, the first Christians were mostly Jews, my best friend from high school is married to a Jewish woman who believes in Jesus, one of my classmates in seminary was a Jesus-believing Jew (he is now a Priest), etc. It’s the rejection of Jesus that’s sinful, not one’s ethnicity.

  • Bigots are people who regard gay people as second-class citizens. Bigots are those like you who spread lies and give fuel to anti-gay violence. Such bigots who call themselves “Father” are doubly bigoted.

  • There is not one scintilla of evidence supporting custody evaluations, and yet all fifty states and the District of Columbia order them regularly in custody disputes.

    Your side of these discussions uses psychology as just another weapon. When it suits your purposes, microstudies of lesbian women “prove” that gay parents are as good or better than heterosexual birth parents on average.

    When it doesn’t suit your purposes, any attempt to assist someone with a same sex attraction issue is a “fraud”.

    If the proponents of this legislation want to do the people of California a service, they should propose outlawing all forms of psychotherapy unless and until it is proven scientifically to give better odds than flipping a coin. That would eliminate about 80% of the mind mavens’ business.

    Until that happens, this is just one more political stunt dressed up in pseudo-scientific clothing to advance the cause.

  • To be honest, Jack senses no peace in your comments. If you were at peace you be quite so aggressive or antagonistic to those holding a different moral position. It’s always revealing when a person resorts to insult and abuse instead of presenting reasoned arguments.

  • About 1/3 of all psychotherapy does harm to patients.

    The solution may be simple: ban psychotherapy.

  • You are so silly.

    1. I do not regard gay people as “second-class citizens”. I believe they deserve the same legal rights accorded to all American citizens. So by your own standard, then, I am not a bigot.

    2. I do not spread lies about gays. I say that they have same-sex relations, and that same-sex relations are considered sinful by the Christian tradition, both of which are truthful statements. So, again by your own standard, I must not be a bigot.

    3. I do not give fuel to anti-gay violence, I rather abhor it. I have never called for gays to be attacked or killed or any such thing. So, again, by our own standard, I am not a bigot.

    That’s three swings, three misses: you’re out! Go back to the dugout (or should i say, doghouse?).

  • You have no genuine respect. Your beliefs contriubte to a hostile climate for unapologetic gay people. Finally, you do not speak for all “Christian tradition”, as there are many Christian denominations who don’t consider same-sex marriage a crime aghainst God.

  • Your beliefs about gay people — which are lies — are in the same class as those who hold racist beliefs.

  • A comprehensive new survey, undertaken by leading medical experts, concludes that key theories in sexuality and gender are unsupported by scientific evidence.

    The authors, Dr. Lawrence Mayer, is a scholar in residence in the Department of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University and professor of statistics and biostatistics at Arizona State University, and Dr. Paul McHugh, professor of psychiatry and behavioural sciences at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine who served for 25 years as psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital

    The report examines nearly 200 peer-reviewed studies on sexual orientation and gender identity concludes that science hasn’t confirmed key theories about these subjects.

    “Examining research from the biological, psychological and social sciences, this report shows that some of the most frequently heard claims about sexuality and gender are not supported by scientific evidence. The report has a special focus on the higher rates of mental-health problems among LGBT populations, and it questions the scientific basis of trends in the treatment of children who do not identify with their biological sex. More effort is called for to provide these people with the understanding, care and support they need to lead healthy, flourishing lives.”

    https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/executive-summary-sexuality-and-gender

  • I don’t look to scientific evidence in order to lead a healthy and flourishing life. Scientific evidence didn’t hold our marriage together for the past 32 years.

    Interesting you would raise this issue when there is zero scientific evidence to support “conversion therapy”.

    And your religious beliefs regarding sexuality are supported by LESS THAN ZERO evidence.

    Homosexual people have existed since the dawn of time, and always will. Their testimony about their lives is the only evidence that matters.

  • “There is evidence, albeit limited, that social stressors such as discrimination and stigma contribute to the elevated risk of poor mental health outcomes for non-heterosexual and transgender populations.”
    ___________________

    Religious beliefs regarding sexual orientation are all about discrimination and stigma. So if you had an ounce of understanding, care and support, you wouldn’t engage in promoting and reinforcing discrimination and stigma.

  • My belief about them is that they have homosexual sex. (See #1 above.) So you are saying you believe that is a lie? What kind of sex do they have then?

  • LOL. I speak for 2000 years of unbroken Christian tradition on this issue. It is clear and unequivocal. None of the Holy Fathers, Ecumenical or local Councils, has ever taught anything else.

    There are, of course, heretical groups today which teach otherwise. They have broken with the uninterrupted tradition of the faith, and now follow their own counsels outside the body of the Church.

  • Thus, you have no respect for others’ Christian beliefs, either. Your sanctimony and arrogance is a sin.

  • Well, they have fabulous sex. You’re playing a stupid game here. No, your belief is that they are sinning and have offended God.

  • Hello Happy Jack,

    Thank you for your reply.

    You ask why psychotherapy can’t work to change sexual orientation.

    There are two reasons for this:

    1 It doesn’t work.

    2 It has been found to be harmful.

    Therefore it has been rejected by psychiatrists and psychologists and conversion therapy for minors has been banned in some US states and cities as well as some other countries.

    See: https://www.livescience.com/50453-why-gay-conversion-therapy-harmful.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._jurisdictions_banning_conversion_therapy_for_minors

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._jurisdictions_banning_conversion_therapy_for_minors

    Many people may choose not to act on unwanted sexual impulses, but educated opinion seems to be convinced that a sexual orientation can rarely if ever be changed.

    I hope that this addresses the concern that you expressed.

  • I have a great respect for truth; none for falsehoods. That is neither sanctimony nor arrogance, but rather love of truth. But if you prefer falsehood over truth, I respect your right to do so.

  • Um, that (that they are sinning) is exactly what I said. It is not a lie. They sin in doing that. Just like every single person on earth sins in many and various other ways. It is not akin to racism, as they are not singled out as a special class. We maintain the same thing about everyone; homosexuals are not singled out as being the only sinners.

  • More BS to justify your prejudice. Why can’t you leave homosexual people alone and concern yourself with your own sin, which is major?

  • Did you know that male seahorses undergo pregnancy and can carry up to 2,000 babies? Happy Father’s Day. So much for stud-farm mentality and “God’s given design and purpose”… Your mind is too small to take this in.

  • Yes, and did you know snails can change their sex? So what? That’s how God in His wisdom created them. But snails and seahorses are not human beings and do not possess rational minds. We’ve been designed differently and God’s purposes have been made known to us.

  • Sexual orientation may or may not be open to change. This will depend on the individual. However, sexual desire can be mastered and controlled by the grace of God and with the cooperation of that person. Secular humanist “therapy” alone is not a magic cure and is unlikely to bear fruit. The process will be slow ad difficult and requires prayer and discipline. Sin can always be overcome. Jack wouldn’t call this process “conversion therapy”.

  • Yes, but read where these “social stressors” come from and what makes us vulnerable to them. And the key words are “limited” and “contribute”.
    Religious beliefs about sexual behaviour are all about how to live according to God’s plan for our life and to walk in peace and humility with the trials placed before us relying not on our own efforts but the grace of God.

  • All sin has been with man since Eden. People have always murdered, cheated, lied and stolen. An “is” is no basis for an “ought”.
    The testimony of a sinner justifying and glorifying in his sinful lifestyle is hardly reliable “evidence”. The basis of a person’s faith is not scientism but scripture, reason and tradition.

  • I do leave them alone. They have to deal with their sins themselves, just as I have to deal with my my own sins myself.

    What, do you think I go out on street corners bothering them? Or maybe target and boycott homosexual business owners? You are quite amusing.

  • You would have us believe that a man who imagines he is a woman really IS a woman. Now THAT is a world all about lies! Such a lack of self-awareness!

  • Your religious beliefs are irrelevant to me. I don’t share them. The social stressors mentioned in that article come from religious bigots like yourself.

  • Says you. Don’t ever lecture me or anyone else about “God’s design”. Unlike snails, seahorses and a host of other creatures of God, you’re full of denial and the stink of your own fear and bias.

  • You dare to stress “scientific evidence” while you reference your myths and fairy tales? That’s hilarious. I don’t need to justify or glorify my life; I just aim to be honest about it. Only gay people themselves can talk reliably about their lives and their experience. Your beliefs are irrational, your scriptures are the word of fallible men, and your traditions involve evil.

  • Hello Happy Jack.

    Thank you for your comments. I accept that you have firmly held religious beliefs. Nevertheless, you appear to accept that a change of sexual orientation is unlikely in the ordinary course of events. If that is so, this is close to educated opinion, that is largely convinced that a sexual orientation can rarely if ever be changed.

    I note that you refer to psychological or psychiatric treatment as ‘Secular humanist “therapy”‘. I believe that these forms of treatment are based on firm evidence, and their results can be measured. This treatment may be secular, but I don’t see it as secular humanist. Rather, it is part of a body of knowledge that is open to all, regardless of their religious or philosophical beliefs.

    If this discussion was about whether homosexual acts were sinful or not, differences between people would be irreconcilable. However, that is about people claiming that they can alter people’s sexual orientation. If this claim was harmless but unsubstantiated, we might tolerate it. However, there appears to be firm evidence that this form of “therapy” is not only futile, but harmful and dangerous. If this is so, it should be banned.

    You have stated that you wouldn’t call “gay conversion therapy” by that name. You have also stated “sexual desire can be mastered and controlled by the grace of God…” Mastering and controlling sexual desire is not changing sexual orientation. If that is all that can be done with sexual desires, then it is not gay conversion, nor is it therapy.

    If people choose not to act on their homosexual desires, so be it. However, this is not the same as a change in sexual orientation. Psychiatrists and Psychologists have judged that claims of being able to change sexual orientation are not credible. We should take this opinion seriously.

  • Frankly, Jack wouldn’t approach a secular therapist unless s/he was recommended by a Catholic authority as he doesn’t believe “talking” therapies alone can resolve spin the intricate ritual problems. He also wouldn’t approach a therapist for this help who faith background was Pentecostal or Calvinist. The Catholic approach to sin, grace, prayer and personal commitment to change is more in tune with man and God.

    However, the research is far from conclusive that sexual behaviour and identity is firmly fixed and not subject to change. And there is no clear evidence how homosexual attraction is formed. Surely if a person wants to remove a desire in their life that contradicts their faith they should be free to do so. The decisions to ban this is politically driven as it challenge the current cultural consensus that same sex attraction is normal, healthy and people should “feel” okay about giving expression to it.
    A comprehensive new survey, undertaken by leading medical experts, concludes that key theories in sexuality and gender are unsupported by scientific evidence. The authors, Dr. Lawrence Mayer, a scholar in residence in the Department of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University and professor of statistics and biostatistics at Arizona State University, and Dr. Paul McHugh, professor of psychiatry and behavioural sciences at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine who served for 25 years as psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital

    The report examines nearly 200 peer-reviewed studies on sexual orientation and gender identity concludes that science hasn’t confirmed key theories about these subjects.

    “Examining research from the biological, psychological and social sciences, this report shows that some of the most frequently heard claims about sexuality and gender are not supported by scientific evidence. The report has a special focus on the higher rates of mental-health problems among LGBT populations, and it questions the scientific basis of trends in the treatment of children who do not identify with their biological sex. More effort is called for to provide these people with the understanding, care and support they need to lead healthy, flourishing lives.”

    https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/executive-summary-sexuality-and-gender

  • Then don’t seek spiritual or psychological assistance. Simples!
    But what right have you got to prevent others who do believe in God, who understand and accept His commands, from seeking such help?

  • I don’t need spiritual or psychological assistance, dumbass. YOU do. I am opposed to lies, and what you are pushing here are lies. I am committed to fighting back against you goddamned bigots until the day I die, and beyond.

  • There is no such thing as “mind mavens.” That’s just Christian for “people who think.”

  • Says the Christian who goes around insulting gay people because he is bored and desperate for attention.

  • Don’t try to impose your religious beliefs on others. Then they won’t need to boycott and outlaw your unscientific practices.

  • There is no “reason” in a religion that falsely claims that a virgin gave birth. Your dishonest lifestyle is sinful. Repent.

  • Jack speaks of himself in the third person, a common symptom of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Religion alone is not a magic cure and is unlikely to bear fruit.

  • You are completely full of it. You support bullying and torturing gay children to death. Burn in hell.

  • So did slavery. I see that “Father Herman Schick” deleted all of his hateful comments on this thread, because he was afraid of there being any consequences for spreading homophobic lies for attention.

  • There is nothing healing, loving, wonderful, reasonable, or calm about your flaming bigotry: “Homophobia now, homophobia forever!!”

  • Not all sex is about breeding, FYI. Condoms also distort the sex act to indulge in sensual gratification.

  • So the claims of antigay so called Christians have even less validity, seeing as they are not based on anything but bad translations of questionable passages from an ancient book?

  • Murdered, cheated, lied, and stolen. Each of those things is a willful act, intended to harm another person.

    Being gay isn’t an act at all. It’s an orientation. And it harms absolutely no one, except for the delicate snowflakes whose religion can not tolerate difference.

    Asserting that we are “glorifying a sinful lifestyle” would require that you prove glorifying, that you prove your god exists and can be sinned against, and denies all of evidence this isn’t what you call a lifestyle… which would mean that you would deny the very statements which would prove it. Going to church, on the other hand, is most definitely a lifestyle choice. You can go or not go, attend a different church, abandon your false religion in favor of the only true faith: jehovah witnessing. Or maybe Mormonism.

    Scientism is what religionists call the thing that enables them to post their beliefs on the internet, also a creation of science.

  • You are conflating three things: orientation or attraction, acting on the orientation, and same sex marriage. Only the first is passive.

    The last two, depending on circumstances, can be detrimental to a society.

    Scientism is the supposed application of science in unwarranted situations not appropriate for the scientific method: e.g., the meaning of life, whether is a spiritual reality, whether there is life after death.

  • To the contrary, since every characteristic of an organism is directed by its genes, and every mammal reproduces by sexual reproduction, there must a heterosexual gene (at least for all extant mammals that have not gone extinct from a failure to reproduce). That is why same sex attraction is biologically self-limiting.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammalian_reproduction

  • Hello,

    Am I replying to Happy Jack, or am I responding to someone who is writing on behalf of Jack? In either case I wish to thank you (or both of you) for your thoughtful response and the link you provide to the article in the New Atlantis.

    You wrote: “Frankly, Jack wouldn’t approach a secular therapist…” In that case I would suggest that if you (or Jack, or both of you) need help, use a therapist where you feel comfortable. However, any therapist, regardless of his or her philosophical or religious background, should be able to treat patients in a professional way.

    It is true, as the article is at pains to explain, that we don’t know what determines sexual orientation, and even whether sexual orientation is one or multi-dimensional. What we do know is that people who identify as gay or bisexual or transsexual have problems in our society. Perhaps if society concentrated on providing “people with the understanding, care and support they need to lead healthy, flourishing lives” we would do better than we do at the moment.

  • Well, Jack, who is singular, cannot disagree. But from whom should the help come and what ideology or faith should drive it? And the pertinent question is why should we expect pre-pubescent children to “self identity” by whatever transient or more permanent desires or “identities” they might experience in these formative years?

  • Hello Happy Jack,

    You referred to yourself in the third person so I thought there might be more than one of you. Thanks for clarifying that matter.

    As for your next question, I think that most young people work out for themselves where they stand in regard to questions of identity. However, I would hope that if they needed help, it would be available to them.

    Best wishes,
    M. Glass

  • Hello Happy Jack,

    I’m happy that you don’t disagree with my last comment, but though I’m puzzled by your latest comment about the “self identity” of children, I don’t really wish to pursue the matter further.

    All the best, though.
    M. Glass

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